or "Who Would Argue With Oprah On Her Own Show?"
or "Faith From An Ape" (see Later Section)
So, God Tube has become one of my new fav. sites to find some of the crazy things Christians put up. I know a lot of the stuff has good intentions, and many of the videos can be really inspiring. But there are some (like the one I posted on U2) that are just crazy, and really show how ignorant some people can be. I mean that in the most academic sense of the word, and don't hold the person accountable who posted it (they were being creative and sharing what they thought which they have every right to do), but more so the lack of education that happens in the our churches. Not teaching people to think critically= ignorance in the members.
I found this interesting video from Oprah where a couple of people try to "convert" Oprah's beliefs/thoughts on her own program by arguing with her. Interesting technique! I'm sure she changed!
Check it out:
NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING I AGREE WITH OPRAH OR ANY OF THE OTHER VIEWS STATED, I AM SIMPLY DISPLAYING SOMETHING INTERESTING AND WOULD LOVE FEEDBACK. Of course I've heard these Christian arguments before, but Oprah makes some good points because many people are ASKING those EXACT same questions, and this is a great example of HOW Christians respond to those questions. Not with discussion, but with argument. REALLY? How often does that work?
Now Oprah is one of my wife's fav. people, and I respect her for many reasons. One being that she has done more good in our world than many Christians have even thought about doing! An interesting side note: Fox News reported on this subject today...an interesting article/development...worth the read.
Although not a hero of mine, Oprah plugs one of my fav. books: Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. This book WILL mess with your head if you don't throw it down after the first couple of chapters. Yes the premise of a teaching/talking gorilla seems ridiculous, but there is a LOT of reasoning behind his choice of that as the main Character. If you haven't read the book, I highly suggest it!
Oprah states that one of the things that Quinn points out is the mistake of believing that there is only "one way". This book comes at life from an evolutionary psychological standpoint. It asks a LOT bigger questions that that. It asks the mother of all questions...what if we aren't the apex of creation? I mean we are the apex of evolution right now, but what if something comes next? What if we are where the Jellyfish was at one point: the apex of evolution until something evolved to surpass it. EVERYTHING we know, do, think, and believe is all dependant on the idea that humanity is the apex of creation and that everything was made for us. What if that weren't true (meaning in line with Reality)? What would change?
Anyway, I can't do the book justice, and am not promoting my beliefs, but stating that I think Quinn raises some great philosophical ideas that makes a person think. To me personally, it says a lot about our place and responsibility to the environment...but that's for another post.
So...some things to think about. How do we approach people who have questions/ different ideas on faith and beliefs? Is the way in which we approach them in line with our own beliefs (i.e. love God, love neighbor)? Why are Christians so scared of having real conversations! This is just ONE reason that mainstream churches are not reaching postmodern people; why there is a gap between the youth group and the baby-boomers in their pews!
leave your feedback, I'd love to hear ANY thoughts about the video, book, or something mentioned in this post.
Jesus himself said that He is the only way. John 14:6 - I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by Me.
ReplyDeleteYou can call this 'prooftexting' if you like but I'm going to take Him at His word. There is no 'interpretation' in this statement. There is no wiggle room in this statement. If you want to chance it, go right ahead at your own peril. I myself will assume that the obvious meaning of the statement is the intended one.
YIKES! It seems that the anonymous post above is doing exactly what those on the Oprah show were doing -- arguing their point of view.
ReplyDeleteIn my little spot on the universe, do I follow Jesus? yes Have I found a better way to live? no
Here is something interesting to add -- a quote from M. Borg's book, The Heart of Christianity. "The image of following "the way" is common in Judaism, and "the way" involves a new heart...One of the meanings of the word "Islam" is "surrender": to surrender one's life to God by radically centering in God. And Muhammad is reported to have said, "Die before you die." Die spiritually before you die physically, die metaphorically before you die literally. At the heart of the Buddhist path is "letting go" - the same internal path as dying to an old way of being and being born into a new...This process of personal spiritual transformation -- what we as Christians call being born agin, dying and rising with Christ, life in the Spirit -- is thus central to the world's religions....Jesus is the embodiment, the incarnation, of the path of transformation known in the religions that have stood the test of time."
Would a Buddhist person in their little spot on the universe be quoting Jesus' words from the book of John?
Ananomoys,
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to comment on your belief in the literal understanding of this passage. You are free to have that interpretation of that passage, and I do not want to belittle your experience and perspective on that passage and how it influences your faith.
However, the statement you make: "If you want to chance it, go right ahead at your own peril. I myself will assume that the obvious meaning of the statement is the intended one."
is higly insensitive and I do not appriciate the sarcasm. However I will not censor it.
I assume by "your own peril" you mean my eternal salvation. Rest assured that I feel very comfortable in my stance, and you do not know what my stance is, so do not attempt to judge me! Your comment saddens me because the undercurrent of the statment says, that you don't really care about my eternal salvation, rather, you care more about "being right". I have not said you are wrong. Please believe that there is no interpretaion in your interpretation of that passage, you are free to state your beliefs on this blog, and they will be RESPECTED! I only ask the same of those that comment in return!
That comment hurts, not because you've "proven yourself right", but because it is insensitve and judgemental, and that is how others are going to percieve you on this blog. I don't want to believe that you are that type of person, and I really don't want people to percieve you in that way. You might want to think about that in future responses. Please do not patronize me with underhanded shots, as heather states, it makes you seem like the kind of person I hope you're not. We're open for discussion though, if you want to try that more respected approach!
thanks
Heather,
I like the Borg Quote...very thought-provoking!!!!
I would like to focus more on your closing question! I think it's a good question, one much similar to what Oprah was asking on her show that the Christians refused to listen to because of their "agenda". It seems that Agendas get in the way of building relationships and having fruitful discussions since they, by nature, turn people off.
See, I think that your last comment is exactly what this blog post is about. Why aren't more Christians actually listening to those questions and, instead of interrupting and arguing, having actual dialog? My thoughts is that if you get them out of their canned arguments against _____(blank)____, then they have to begin to actually think about the question and consider the possibilities for themselves. That's scary for a question to pop up in something you thought you had all the answers to!
Either that, or once they've scraped the bottom of the canned argument, they close down and turn off because they have no more answers. It's ok to not have answers, and it's ok to ask these questions! I wish more Christians were being taught those two statements because it would change the face of the Christian faith!
Thank you both for your comments! Both views are respected by me, and I encourage insight from anyone!
God Bless
j
OK, so re-reading my post i didn't need to put the personal attack stuff in there. sorry. but still, heather, how do you interpret john 14:6? that Jesus meant he is a way but so is Mohammed and Buddha? this isn't my personal opinion that i've made up. it's there in black and white for anyone to read. it is not a 'point of view', it is a statement of truth from Jesus himself. He said it , not me!!! Had He said that He was just one of many ways, I'd accept that as truth!
ReplyDeleteThe author of this blog accepts many assertions in the Bible - that we are to be disciples of Jesus, love our neighbors, the existence of (and the name of) the Holy Spirit - these are all true and the reason we know them to be true is because these are found in the Bible.
So - if a person accepts some of the Bible as true but not all of it, what is the process by which some parts are deemed true and some parts are deemed not true? Is everyone free to pick and choose what they like and don't like? and if they are, why is it invalid for me to accept John 14:6 as true? That leads to a second question - if some parts are deemed not trustworthy, doesn't the whole book become suspect?
Maybe John 14:6 is to say that when Jesus was sent to save humanity that he was to provide the way to get to the Father (through his sacrifice), the truth that he was who he said he was, and the life that is given to everyone eternally.
ReplyDeleteI have come to the conclusion that Jesus' love pursues even after death. I honestly don't believe that God has chosen some and disregarded others. So yes, Jesus is the way to salvation. But even someone who has never heard the name of Christ could be made new by His grace.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnony.,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your apology, I respect that a lot! No worries.
Since you directed your question at heather, I'll wait to see if she responds before I do.
Chris,
Thanks for your thoughts. I meant to tell you when you mentioned this the other night that I'd heard this doctrine before a long time back, but had never given it much thought. I'd like to read more on that because it is challenging to me...and I learn best by challenging my beliefs, not by reinforcing them with people/books that I know I will agree with in advance. That's why I love the blogoshpere! That's what I'm trying to create here, a safe place for people to bring forth their ideas.
It gave me something to ponder, and I always appreciate new things to ponder! So I honestly can't offer any insight or feedback on that thought because I have not spent a fair amount of time trying to grasp it. I will continue to think about it thought! Thanks for your contribution!
November 09, 2007 2:43 AM
sorry the previous delete was of my own response (same one here) but with fewer spelling errors. my bad!
Sigh...
ReplyDelete"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
What exactly is the "obvious" meaning of that statement?
And I hardly think that Justin is picking and choosing parts to believe. I think he's choosing to think about what the parts that don't make complete sense might be getting at, whereas others might seem a little more clear cut. Incidentally, you have chosen a verse there that is not as clear cut.
Notice Jesus didn't say "You have to believe, T, U, V, W, X, Y and Z about me or you're burning in hell dude."
And let me quote heather again, because I thinks she's spot on with that quote, even though she was later misquoted.
"This process of personal spiritual transformation -- what we as Christians call being born agin, dying and rising with Christ, life in the Spirit -- is thus central to the world's religions....Jesus is the embodiment, the incarnation, of the path of transformation known in the religions that have stood the test of time."
Another way to look at this passage or "interpret" it is to see it AS interpretation. That is to say, this passage is the voice of the Johannine community and not necessarily the voice of the historical Jesus. (See Borg's "Meeting Jesus Again...") John is using such a statement to interpret the Jesus tradition, perhaps even to argue against the gnostic understanding of Jesus. Or, it may be straight up rebuttal of the gospel of Thomas. At any rate, I am not convinced that the historical Jesus intended on such an exclusive understanding of salvation.
ReplyDeletewell said, TM
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments all!
ReplyDeleteJeff, thanks for pointing out: "And I hardly think that Justin is picking and choosing parts to believe. I think he's choosing to think about what the parts that don't make complete sense might be getting at, whereas others might seem a little more clear cut."
That is def. true. In all actuality, I working hard to adopt a holistic understanding of the Bible. In my upbringing and experience with churches, they are the ones that have cut and paste the scripture. Even "Bible Drill" and "Scripture Memorization" (not to mention the Roman's Road and all other "tracts") were exercises in proof-texting our faith. I am struggling to see the Bible, and Christianity (along with it's Jewish OT roots)in a more holistic way by putting back together all of the pieces of the jigsawed faith I inherited. John 14:6 is a great example of this proof-texting. (not picking on anonymous, all of us have been victims of this approach).
thanks also for catching the misquote, I missed that until you pointed it out.
TM,
you are spot on. Everything's an interpretation. We can't help that either, it's human nature. The gospels were the early church's interpretation of Christ, and as you mention, always in reaction to something else. Part of reclaiming a holistic understanding is to understand not only the actual historical context, but how that context informs what the writer chooses to write. I think that you would agree that the historicity of the bible while may bother some because it uproots literal/traditionally accepted understandings, doesn't make the Bible any less "sacred" in our lives!
Anony.,
you say, "if some parts are deemed not trustworthy, doesn't the whole book become suspect?"... interesting question.
The "logic" presented here would seem to lead to that conclusion. Indeed one could come to this conclusion, and If someone asked me that question I would ask which takes a greater faith, the Bible where everything is "trustworthy" and "true" (although as you've pointed out, I think we have differing definitions of truth, and I prob. wouldn't use those words in that statement because it is misleading), or the Bible that has a lot of mystery and questions? Faith is a part of being a Christian, right?
But see, we're all guilty of picking and choosing scriptures. I've tried to find the quote, but can't remember who said it.The paraphrase is that, "the idea that we have to DO something (i.e. accept Christ through a believer's prayer) is thus gaining salvation through works and is in complete contradiction to the Christian Idea of grace." (see Eph. 2:8) Greek here (Kharis/Charis)for grace means "unmerited favor", ‘divine favor’ or ‘gift’. The latter translation seemingly renders the verse redundant: "for it's by grace (this divine gift) you have been saved, through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the GIFT of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
paraphrase: So it's this GIFT of God, freely given that brings us this GIFT of salvation, not earned by your works. completely from God. Perhaps not redundant after all, rather an emphasis. And yes, I know I left out the "through faith" part, but it doesn't nessicarily say "though OUR faith", nor does it say faith in what. God's faith in his own creation? God's faith in his redemptive power? Our faith in a better WAY of living: one of "truth" and "life"? The same WAY of living that Christ exemplified/incarnated?
Just throwing out another "interpretation" because everything is interpretive. Simply because one claims to take it at face value, (as Jeff pointed out is really not possible), doesn't make it interpreted. The most likely scenario is that it (John 14:6) was already interpreted before it was taught. Someone somewhere had to interpret that Christ was talking in an eternal context and not a temporal one. Yes the leading up text SEEMS to be talking about something eternal (heaven?, but he is saying it in very mysterious language. However, in that big section (John 14:6-the end of 17( may I point out that it is presented as ONE long discourse)) following EVERYTHING referred to is temporal; about Christ/God's & the Disciple's work on earth. I find that context interesting and to me it renders the "obvious" meaning not so "obvious"
I'm not claiming these as my own thoughts, I have pulled them from many sources and ideas, and THEY ARE NOT NECESSARILY CONGRUENT WITH MY BELIEFS!!! I'm just throwing out alternitives. Still, even that is not a holistic understanding of the person, message, and work of Christ and God. It is proof-texting too.
So yes, I question everything. But I have faith that the Bible is alive in my own life. It means I have to do a little more digging because I can't take everything as the "obvious" interpretation. Because of that I have found a deeper and more meaningful faith that gives me a passion far beyond the Proof-texted, literal, surface faith of my youth.
knowing heather, I think this is exactly what she means when she says, "In my little spot on the universe, do I follow Jesus? yes Have I found a better way to live? no"
The boxed in Jesus and God that I've always been taught about was not a better way to live compared to the freed God and Christ that I now follow. This new Christ empowers me and gives me a passion for others and him that is unlike anything I've felt before. I feel more in line with his teachings and work now than I did before. I care more about the things he cared about; the poor, the hungry, the marginalized, etc... This to me is a better way of living. For me He IS the Truth and the Life. It is only through following Him and coming to him that I have found the Father.
I don't say that to say other approaches/understandings are wrong, only to say this is where I am in my life now. I am respectful of where each person is in their own journey. For instance, I do not have the same understanding that Chris presents, but I respect it and am intrigued by it, because it offers a possible new perspective of the Reality of God.
Actually, I fall closer to TM and Jeff in my personal beliefs (specifically contextual and historical-Metaphorical Interpretations), rather than Chris and you. However, that does not make either of your opinions any less valid.
ok, so my 2 cents, you guys owe me change! please note, I don't claim to be more right than anyone else. thanks for this discussion, I'd love to hear more!
"The boxed in Jesus and God that I've always been taught about was not a better way to live compared to the freed God and Christ that I now follow. This new Christ empowers me and gives me a passion for others and him that is unlike anything I've felt before. I feel more in line with his teachings and work now than I did before. I care more about the things he cared about; the poor, the hungry, the marginalized, etc... This to me is a better way of living. For me He IS the Truth and the Life. It is only through following Him and coming to him that I have found the Father."
ReplyDeletebingo bango bongo. couldn't have said it better myself.
Thanks to Jeff, TM, & Justin for putting into words what I did not verbalize in my original response.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous - I am responding because your question was directed to me. I will prob repeat some of the same ideas that have already been stated. Forgive me for that.
"How do I interpret John 14:6?" As a child, this meant Jesus was the way to get to heaven period. I now interpret (as everything is interpreted) this to mean much much more. To me, Jesus simply showed us the "way" to live - completely, perfectly connected to God....this included having passion - for peace, for marginalized, for love etc. My interpretation of love (which = God) may be very different from yours. That is okay. Here is a simple example that I'm sure is familiar to all of you. I am mentioning this because I don't believe Jesus came to trump all other religions. I don't buy into him meaning that his religion was better than anyone elses. That, to me, misses the point.
A child died today as a practicing Muslim. He had never heard the name Jesus - seen a Bible - read our scripture. He never heard that Jesus was "the way, truth, & life". How could God (who is love), knowingly send this child to Hell? How could our loving God create a person just to send them to Hell? That is not love to me. That is not my God.
I know Hell is a completely different topic -- one that I'm not willing to talk about in this context. I mentioned this because of my original Borg quote.
J did a great job talking about the Bible's truth and "untruth". I second that.
Jeff and Heather,
ReplyDeleteThanks again for your continuation in this conversation.
Heather,
I like that you added a story to your response for 2 reasons:
1) INHO we must never forget that while we discuss ideas, theology, philosophy, and theory...that there is always a human face that needs to be placed on these topics. As you so soulfully mention, we are talking about real live people and when we lose track of that aspect it is easy to be insensitive and seem uncaring when speaking on a topic such as this. I am as guilty as anyone of losing sight of that at times! Thanks!
Also your story resonated with me. I have, as a youth minister in the past, been faced with a similar but slightly different scenario. I've had a young guy tragically lose his mother that he was very close to. She was one of the sweetest people I've ever met, always very active and helpful with youth group events, but had never made a "public profession of faith in Christ". After losing his mother and I doing my best in those rookie years of ministry, was faced with a tough question: "is my mom going to hell because she wasn't a Christian? Is there any way that God will let her into heaven. She was such a great person, and the best mom in the world."
Looking into that kids tear-filled eyes I didn't know how to answer that question. Suddenly my inherited theology about salvation was pulled into question. There isn't an easy answer to that question! What came out of my mouth surprised me. "I think that God is loving and graceful! I don't completely understand God, but for some reason I think there will be a lot more people in heaven that we (Christians) are allowing in."
IDK where that came from to this day, but when faced with a real life situation that was what came out of my mouth. I know it sounds like I wanted just to ease the pain of his loss and offer hope in hopelessness, but I can't say for sure that this response wasn't spirit led. Things change when you add pastoral care into the mix (not just meaning care that pastors do, but the spiritual care that ANYONE can give.
So your story struck home with me! And I think in spirit, these were the same questions that Oprah was asking the ladies in her audience.
The difference is that it was easy for the ladies in the vid. to respond like they did because it wasn't personal. They weren't talking about "real people", but about faceless theories. Again, because of what I stated above, I will cut them slack for that...it's easy to do!
Anonymous,
I really would be interested in hearing your opinion on these situations. (and I don't mean any of this sarcastically or calling you out, I really am curious how you would minister in these situations). Since you accept the John 14 verse completely literally and "obviously" (so I don't put words in your mouth, but I would say "traditionally"), how would you respond to heather's story? How would you respond to the story that I just told of a youth? I'm asking because I didn't know what to say, and put in that situation again, I'm not sure what I would say then either.
And I'm interested in how anyone, not just Anonymous would answer it. I seek the wisdom of others on this one, because I find that I personally have the least amount of answers when faced with people who are hurting. As hard as this may be to believe, that is when I MOST find myself at a loss for words!
love to hear all of your thoughts!
thanks
j